Uncover the Human
Uncover the Human
What Happens When We Remember the Human Behind Every Decision?
What happens when we place humans at the center of every workplace decision? Anne-Catherine Nielsen, founder of Equo Magna, brings her rich experience from the hospitality industry to tackle this question in a conversation that couldn't be more timely.
In a post-pandemic world where employees are reevaluating their relationship with work, Nielsen offers invaluable insights into what truly matters. "There's been a search for meaning since the pandemic," she notes, highlighting how today's workforce seeks purpose beyond a paycheck. This shift has created both challenges and opportunities for employers.
Anne Catherine's perspective on leadership transformation is particularly compelling. "The market conditions are going to create better leaders," she observes, explaining the need for organizations to move toward more human-centered approaches. The conversation explores how toxic workplace cultures simply cannot sustain themselves and how accountability balanced with recognition creates environments where people can thrive authentically.
The discussion goes beyond theory, offering practical insights on team dynamics, leveraging technology while preserving human connection, and creating psychologically safe spaces where feedback—even "grumbling"—becomes a powerful tool for improvement. Anne Catherine's background in both hospitality and HR creates a unique lens for understanding how treating employees well directly translates to customer satisfaction and business success.
Whether you're a leader seeking to transform your organization's culture or an employee navigating today's changing workplace landscape, this conversation provides actionable wisdom for creating more human-centered workplaces. As Anne Catherine reminds us, at the end of every decision, product, or service, there's always a human being.
Hello Christina, Hi, happy Monday. Happy Monday. We did have actually a wonderful happy Monday. We just had a conversation with Anne Catherine, which you're about to hear. Anne Catherine is just a wonderful thinker in the world of humans at work.
Speaker 2:She definitely is. We worked with her in a previous life and loved it and I'm really hoping to start collaborating with her just because she's just wonderful to work with. She's fully aligned with the passion behind remembering the human on the other side of every decision and she's doing wonderful work with her company, equamagna, on bringing that humanity into helping midsize and small companies with their HR practices. So they're not just operational, but it's really about the people and their experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she comes most recently from the hospitality industry before she started her company at Westchester Country Club and she brings both HR and guest hospitality right to the table. I think that has definitely helped inform some of her thinking around how to bring purpose and meaning to people in the workplace and how important that is, especially now post-pandemic, and how important that is when we're all facing the great resignation and just changes in how we think about work. So it was really cool to get all the insights from her, as well as just some good actions you can take to put yourself in a good place for the future of work.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely put yourself in a good place for the future of work. Yes, definitely. When we worked together, it was amazing to see how what she's talking about was actually happening. The Country Club was truly exceptional at how they treated customers and how they even treated us as vendors when we were there. It was above and beyond most places that I had ever seen treat people and it came from truly the inside. So, because employees were treated that way from the top all the way on a daily basis in every action, that that translated into their clients and their partners being happy and coming back. And so we say this and we get on our soapbox, but it actually does happen. If you treat your employees really well and every day, from every aspect, at every level, it does translate to success with your customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good for the bottom line.
Speaker 2:Yes, straight to the bottom line.
Speaker 1:Well, we hope you enjoy it. It was a great conversation.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely is Enjoy.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Uncover the Human, where every conversation revolves around enhancing all the connections in our lives.
Speaker 2:Whether that's with our families, co-workers or even ourselves.
Speaker 1:When we can be our authentic selves, magic happens.
Speaker 2:This is Cristina Amigoni.
Speaker 1:And this is Alex Colombo. Let's dive in.
Speaker 3:Authenticity means freedom. Authenticity means freedom. Authenticity means going with your gut. Authenticity is bringing 100% of yourself.
Speaker 1:Not just the parts you think people want to see, but all of you. Being authentic means that you have integrity to yourself.
Speaker 3:It's the way our intuition is whispering. Something deep-rooted and true Authenticity is when you truly know yourself. You remember and connect to who you were before others told you who you should be. It's transparency, relatability, no frills, no makeup, just being.
Speaker 1:And welcome back to another episode of Uncover the Human. We are joined today with our guest, Anne-Catherine Nielsen. Welcome to the podcast, Anne-Catherine.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for being here. We're really excited to have Anne-Catherine. We've worked with her a little bit before previously, as she was a customer at a company that both Christine and I had worked at, and we're really glad to have her back on here and I will let you do the introduction what are you up to and what's your background?
Speaker 3:So a little bit about my background. I actually started my own company a few years ago, just pre-pandemic in March of 2019. I decided to start my own consultancy in HR. That's called Dicomagna and I service a broad range of clients, mainly in the hospitality industry hotels and clubs and provide HR outsourcing, hr consulting, some seasonal placement and some executive search as well. But prior to that, I worked for a number of hospitality companies. I worked for Starwood Hotels and Resorts for a number of years prior to joining the club industry and I worked as a director. My last position was actually director of HR at the Rochester Country Club in Y in Rochester, where I was responsible for 600 employees. So I've worked my entire life really in hospitality and operational roles and HR and I've helped both, working for both for-profit and not-for-profit companies and in operational and corporate roles as well. It gives me a different, a hybrid opportunity to service my clients and their needs.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful and I love the name of your company. Can you explain it to us?
Speaker 3:Yes, I had to come up with, you know something. So I actually created the name Equo Magna. It's really made up of two words coming from Latin equanimity and magnanimity, and the reason I selected those is I'm very fond of both of those. Actually, I think they really represent, you know, what I try to offer, which is really a balanced approach and kind of that mindfulness in taking care of people and making the proper decisions that are going to align with the organization. So I felt it was a good word to use to really show that I support you know, philosophically as well, in the philosophy that I provide my clients, that I provide that, you know, balanced, very balanced approach in making good decisions.
Speaker 2:Well, having worked with you, I can say that you definitely embody them. Thank you.
Speaker 1:You've come to this from both sides, from hospitality and HR you get to see kind of both sides of taking care of people as well as taking care of people.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and it's not always easy because it's really you have to achieve results for people and you know there's never. It's very obviously we're human right, we make mistakes and it's hard to deliver a consistent message or consistent service, consistent service. So really spending time on what that looks like and what the experience should be to be able to deliver on that client or member experience is important, and there are so many variables to the complexity of the human being that it's certainly an interesting industry to be part of. It puts me in a strong position to service other industries as well that may have less of a focus on the human element because they design other products, but it's still for people. So ultimately, hr is very transferable. It definitely is.
Speaker 1:It's a great industry, especially for the amount of change that's happened, not only in the last two years, but just in general. So I'd love to hear some of your journey, from what it was like starting out and what has changed over the years, and particularly what has changed in the last two years, with everything kind of shutting down.
Speaker 3:Sure, I think everyone, whether you work in HR or in any industry, will tell you, the last two years have been very different, right, and we've all had to go for this incredible learning curve of figuring out how to lead normal lives or how to kind of recreate the world of work. Some people have lost work, some people have lost it temporarily and regained work. So I've certainly helped my clients over those past few years, you know, figure out the best strategy to stay in business and I've, you know, supported them in aligning, you know, their HR, you know initiatives and strategy to their business objectives to make sure that they would strive coming out of this. So we've had different strategies. I mean, some of my clients have had to furlough their staff and as soon as they could they brought them back and we've done a lot of communication, which has been wonderful to see everybody come back. But I think we've done it in a very sensitive way and I think many employers who today, have, you know, are in a better position, you know, from a recruitment standpoint, are the ones that really took care of their employees. For this, you know, difficult time and certainly something that, when I had the power to make you know to kind of influence the outcome certainly suggested that you know to kind of influence the outcome. So it may suggest that you know we do everything in our power to help the employees for this time. So I think you know employees have learned to flex. I think everybody's had to learn to flex and adapt. I think we're seeing employers who are slowly coming back to working in office spaces where they were exclusively remote for a period of time.
Speaker 3:In our industry, obviously, you can't be fully remote, so some employees had to come back and work in a physical building. So it was preparing for that as well and obviously observing the different mandates and the evolution of those mandates as well. And we're still watching to see what's going to happen and just adapting as we go. So I think it's been actually an interesting phase.
Speaker 3:I think for every HR professional, whether you're attached to a company or you're not a consultant to see how you can best actually tailor your policies and your practices to the workplace and to your workforce, to make sure that everybody understands what's happening and feels you know that they're part of this, that they still belong, whether you're working remotely or you know at the company that you're part of it. So interesting times. I mean, I'm delighted Actually I was so happy to be kind of an outsider to some extent and have the opportunity to work for several clients, because I've learned from every one of my clients and I think there is no one way of doing things. There is the way for that particular client, but we've always done it with a commitment to the employees and making sure that the outcome would be positive with the company and the employees. It's been a good few years, but very different certainly.
Speaker 2:Definitely different. One of the things that I know I've switched the way I look at things and maybe not too much, but when you and I worked together, we were, you know, we were focused on the change management. That was a very clear path with the new technology, and I've always had a hard time with the overall approach to rigid change management only when there's big projects or big processes or big changes and I think the last two years have demonstrated that more than change management, it's change agility that organizations need to have and learn and embody on a daily basis so that when the sudden changes happen there's that turnaround happens much quicker, without having to have this formalized big process every single time.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, I absolutely concur with what you're saying. I think it's really required every organization to be very nimble and to kind of watch for the outside, to really scan the environment. I think at times you know companies are so focused on you know their internal stakeholders and the ownership, et cetera, but really scanning your environment and understanding what's coming to you and how best to strive in that environment has been critical for companies, and particularly small to medium-sized companies, to survive and strive in this environment. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, given the rapid changing requirements for things like COVID, for things that whether we're in office or out of office, and what can be done, what are some general philosophies you apply when it comes to communicating these kinds of changes? We're experiencing this on a daily, weekly basis sometimes. How do you approach that from a company side?
Speaker 3:So when I'm new to a company, typically I come in and I interview the leadership team. I will go and spend some time and dedicate a couple of days and really interview the entire leadership team. For me it's really an opportunity to get insight and perspective into their philosophy, what the business objectives are, and almost put a voice because I obviously report back on my findings but give back that voice to the company so that we can figure out what those you know strategic initiatives should look like. And I really like to do that, you know. So it's not just me coming from the outside and kind of imposing my views, it's really trying to understand and leverage that talent internally and figuring out, you know, based on where they are, how to quickly adapt.
Speaker 3:So some, you know some organizations have different ways of communicating. Some are very hands-on. They have, you know, daily communication. Stand-up meetings is, you know, pretty standard in our industry, but for other organizations it's more so email communication, zoom meetings on a regular basis, zoom meetings on a regular basis. Certainly communication has been, you know, a big piece of that strategic you know agenda of saying how do we stay in touch, how do we keep the teams engaged on a daily basis, the team that's here on premise, the team that's remote and making sure people are still aligned and communicating and feeling good about being obviously attached to the company.
Speaker 3:But I didn't feel isolated. I think many people still suffered isolation. I mean we've tried to do our best to make sure people felt, you know, that they're valued and still contributing and even though many things kind of fell through the wayside, I mean we were not, you know, enforcing the nine to five, but really putting value to the fact that people were still there. So they're committed and dedicated and caring and I think for the leaders individually to relate to their teams and reassure them to wait that we're going to go through this. We'll make it happen for people who were furloughed to say no, as soon as we can bring you back, we'll bring you back.
Speaker 3:Many of the employers that I worked with were very generous and maintained the benefits for a period of time, tried to do their absolute best to maintain a quality life for the employees. So I'm certainly happy to advocate for that and help figure out what that should look like and how long we could do this. And luckily, I would say, for the employees that I've supported, the workforce is pretty much back to 100%. I would say you know 95% to 100% there. So it feels like we're turning that corner. Now that you know, hopefully the outlook will be better for 2022. But certainly it's an interesting ride for everyone.
Speaker 2:It definitely is, fingers crossed, yeah, exactly. It definitely is Fingers crossed that it can be returning to or moving towards 100% and new 100% and whatever. That is no-transcript. And you've also been working quite a bit with the talent acquisition piece and the great resignation that we're going through right now. So what have you seen being kind of like the focus of recruiting and the people looking for jobs.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's interesting because then I was actually just writing an article on the state of unions a few weeks ago and we're talking about, you know, and particularly in our industry. I mean, some properties will be unionized. Some are not. The properties that had a union actually were lucky to have a workforce that they could, you know, that quickly came back to positions and was loyal because they obviously have seniority. So many great benefits to obviously having that union workforce. And some do have a mixed population of union and non-union employees. Obviously, creating that balance as well between those two is always important, but I would say certainly for industries and properties, in my case, that had non-union employees.
Speaker 3:Interestingly, as economy was coming back, we did see that there was definitely more of a need for people and a harder time to attract the right talent and engage people in positions that they had previously been committed to. So some people who actually disengaged from or left the industry when you know there was a lack of work didn't necessarily come back to those previous jobs and were looking for something different. So, yes, today I would say generally and it's not just hospitality I think many employees in the US today are struggling with finding the right talent and finding enough people to fulfill all the roles that they're opening up, which is an exciting market for employees today. And I think you know looking at the other side of the coin is to say, you know, if you're not an employee out there right now is you have a tremendous opportunity to go and look for the employer of choice, the employer that you think that you can commit to for the long term, an employer that will have you know similar values to yours and where you feel that you can grow and fulfill all your aspirations. And I think this pandemic has really kind of created that reality check for people where they're not willing to just take the first job, they're not just willing to obviously they need to cover their costs and based on what they're looking for themselves.
Speaker 3:But I think, beyond that, I think there's been a search for meaning after this pandemic and I think people are interested in learning more about their company. The company they're joining and what that company aligns with from a value standpoint is becoming more and more relevant. And what I'm seeing really in terms of each show is each show is really shifting into really, instead of you know, being really internally marketed, it's really more so outside marketing of you know what does the company stand for, is becoming, you know, a big portion of what HR speaks to and proposes in that value proposition to new employees. So it's really realigning that internal proposition, you know, of employers with the market demand and today certainly employees do have some leverage and power in what they decide for themselves, which I think should create an incredible employer market. It's just going to stretch employers to get creative, to get the right, best talents. So I tend to look at it on the positive side but certainly it's putting a bit of a stretch on employers today to figure out how to be that employer of choice.
Speaker 1:I like your example of the unions and everything. If you've worked with unions and non-union workforces and that loyalty is really interesting, you get that loyalty, that seniority, that would come back much faster. That's something that they've done studies on. If the company does everything they can before laying off the workforce, it tends to be a company that's set up for greater success in the long term or tends to be around for longer, and that's a really good way of looking at it too. The employee is going to be around there longer.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I think you know I've worked in both environments and for benefits. You know their benefits and you know medical benefits and pension benefits, so it gives them a security. I think that's that is important today. I think nowadays it's something that is critical to people. They want to make sure that they have that safeguard is something that is critical to people. They want to make sure that they have that safeguard, and we are seeing an increase in employees looking to become unionized, and I think, for employers who are looking to stay union free, this is something to observe and to think about.
Speaker 3:Just to say so, what does it? You know, why would we want to stay union free and what does that look like then? What are some of the things that we need to make sure we provide in our value proposition to stay union-free? And that really, I think today is really very much forefront. I mean it should be at the forefront of every employer, regardless of the industry that you're in, because that's the reality of the market. People need some safety net, people need a sense of belonging, but also good medical benefits. Today we see it for this pandemic. I mean it's really essential. And then you know retirement as well. I mean, I think people have, you know, realized that you know life is precious and you know they want to work but also at some point, get the opportunity to enjoy, you know, the fruits of their labor, and that's important too. So, I think, employees, our task was thinking about all of that and finding balance between generating revenue and taking care of the employees. So we're going to see more of that, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting to hear your point of view on this because you hear from so many. You hear it in general. There'll be tossed around terms like well, people just don't stay at companies. There's no loyalty to companies, everybody's changing jobs every two years, and these are some of the reasons. It always seems like it's put on the employee, as if the employee is just this flighty person who's decided not to stick around just for the fun of it. But a lot of people don't actually want to do that. They want to feel like they're building something long-term. They just don't feel like it's accessible where they are and it's really interesting to hear your point of view on that where it becomes more of the employer's responsibility to provide some of that stability, some of that long-term feel and that connection to the overall purpose.
Speaker 3:And I think the different philosophies, right, every employer will have their own and always, you know, coming in, as you know, with a new client, always respect, you know, the kind of the legacy and the philosophy of the company and the vision of the CEO and how it all started. Company and the vision of the CEO and how it all started. I think it's very important to kind of observe, understand and then see how you can best align and still bring kind of, you know, in this moment, right now, how can we best take advantage of everything that you are and become more of what you want to be. With that, you know, an external scan that's the secret sauce is trying to figure out. You know all those variables and it's different for each company. I mean we see companies in my industry. For instance, disney was very big at creating their internal university. They kept people, I mean with tenure, 20, 30, 40 years I still think it's the case because they were able to groom and help, you know, divert their teams. You know, and you could start at a very line level and go up into management, you know, over years of your career with Disney. That's not the case of every company, right, not every company will dedicate the whole training and development organization within the organization to allow for that.
Speaker 3:I think for the medium-sized companies that I tend to service right now, I would say, if you don't have that capability internally, I think what is really important today to meet the needs of your individual talent is allowing them to partner with people from the outside. I've always felt that it's important to learn from other people, from other organizations, from partnerships. I mean. You can't just. You know, being self-sufficient within the organizations is difficult. It's difficult even if you have great talent internally, and I think the opportunity to leverage partnerships, finding mentors within the organization and outside of the organization is critical too, and it's something that larger corporations don't always think about, because they like to keep you focused on what you're doing for your organization. They're a little scared of losing you to other organizations if you go and brainstorm ideas or share best practices. But I think, actually, that that's something that is going to come to the forefront a lot more, and I think smaller and million-sized companies have to do that. It's the only way. It's the only way to remain competitive and to keep your employees engaged and excited about what they do every day, and they will be so much more loyal to you for giving them the opportunity to look outside.
Speaker 3:I almost feel like at times, you know in in the business world. You're almost like you know parents. You know, I see it. You know raising kids. I shouldn't maybe do this metaphor analogy, but you know, letting your kids observe what's happening outside allows them to you know, appreciate or that they're you know offered. You know, letting your kids observe what's happening outside allows them to you know, appreciate all that they're you know offered. You know at home, and I don't think you lose them for that. You know matter.
Speaker 3:And I think you know, by being a little bit more detached and allowing your employees to grow and observe and share that feedback, say you know what we're not doing it quite right, you know we should be. You know look at that company, how they do it and bring that in. You know, if we allow that and we actually welcome it, you know that company is going to thrive. That company is going to do better than any other company because the employees will be invested and understand that they have a say and they can change, they can make a difference, they can change how things are and I think many, many employees today are looking for that opportunity to contribute with their talents, their skills and their level, based on their aspirations, much more than ever before, I think we're going to see incredible ideas come out of our workforce if we manage, if our leaders accept to be that nimble you know right and welcome those ideas. That's really how I see you know right and and welcome those ideas.
Speaker 3:That's really how I see you know leadership change as well as being a lot more adaptive and flexible and listening, that ability to listen to, to their employees and management team and taking that outside input is is going to be critical. And we see today, I mean we're all fighting this global pandemic, right, and we see different approaches. It's almost like every country has, it's almost like a company itself, right, and we see what works, what doesn't work, but we learn from each other. I mean by observing, right, well, the business world is the same, right. I mean we see what's working, what's not working and we adapt. It's almost trial and error, and I think we are in that stage of there is no right or wrong when it comes to leadership, but there is something that works for a period of time and then you kind of reinvent it and move to the next level. What is working right now is what needs to be tweaked and defined along the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. I really like the concept of the people experience and the leadership development and the leadership application is that it's not a medal, it's not an end goal. You don't just say like, oh well, I've learned these five skills checkmark. We're good, we've created these 10 things for our people. We're good.
Speaker 2:It's a process, it's a daily thing, it's continuous because of the change agility that's needed, because of the fact that humans are complex and what they want from life is changing, and part of it maybe it wasn't, it was always there, but now it's the opportunity to actually speak up and say it. Now they have the power to say, well, I've always wanted meaning and now I can actually demand it or find it somewhere else. And it's that continuous, like listening and understanding and being nimble, and not just saying like, well, you know, like I've made it to director, I'm good, I don't need to learn anything, I don't need to change anything, we've got our policies, we've got our processes. Just go do your job. And unfortunately well, fortunately, more than unfortunately finally, just go do your job. It's not enough.
Speaker 3:Great. I think many people are looking for purpose right now Meaning and purpose.
Speaker 2:Meaning and purpose.
Speaker 1:I like what you said about being able to look externally and bring some of those influences in, because it is very clear and I can see now in retrospect. I never really thought of the dichotomy at the time, but in retrospect, when you're in a company that's telling you don't look out the windows, this is what we're doing, I don't care what any other companies are doing, stop looking at them, please, just keep your head down. It's pretty limiting. And then the second you have a company where it's like oh yeah, you see that, you like that. I wonder if we could do something like that here. It's a very different feeling and it's at least worth the conversation, the evaluation and same with countries. There's a lot of. Actually, one of the things we've been talking about is the four-day workweek. Right, a couple of countries started this. They find that's working fine. There's cultural differences for every country, yes, but what can you learn from this? Is there something that's still beneficial, even within the US culture versus? I think it's Amsterdam, is it? What are the differences?
Speaker 2:And I think Iceland did the experiment for the four-day work week, and a few other countries are trying it out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think many employees in the US would jump on that. Oh yes, absolutely. So I think it's doable. I think it would, obviously based on the industry it's doable. It's just figuring out how to create the systems and the efficiencies around that, and based on the client base that you're taking care of, certainly it's doable. I mean people could. I mean. I see our industry is 24-7 year-round, but it doesn't mean that people can't work for days and you have a rotation of you know teams.
Speaker 3:So, again, it's how you organize the work and how you distribute it. But I think with the you know, with the importance of technology today and the power of AI and what's coming our way which we don't even quite fathom yet, we're going to be able to free up sometime. I think, you know, technology is never going to. I think many people are a little afraid of technology, thinking it's going to take away jobs. It may, you know, it's going to help us reinvent, you know, other jobs and positions, but ultimately there will always be human guidance. You know, even to AI, right, I mean, humans will still drive technology at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:But I think we need to be smarter about, you know, how we operate daily, how we operate our companies and how we meet our customers. You know requirements while managing our resources, and I think the better we manage our resources, the better the output to our customers and the better, you know, we'll all do so. I definitely think that there's tremendous opportunity for companies, small and big, to leverage technology. I don't think it's just, you know, for the big and large corporation. I think it's, you know, we've come to a point where it's available to all size companies and it's very exciting times.
Speaker 2:Definitely is, and it's true, like technology is taking tasks away from people, but not necessarily jobs, because the jobs are always reinvented. With that, technology or not, you're constantly reinventing jobs and so it's just a reinvention of the job. Okay, these tasks you no longer do, let's figure out what other tasks can need to be done, because there's always tasks. And it reminded me of something we spoke to before we got on the podcast on how the end goal, the end result, the end stakeholder is always a human, is always a person, no matter what industry and what product and what service we provide, which is a good reminder, I think, for us in the human space of work, because sometimes, at least for me, I struggle sometimes with looking at, oh, like where's the tangible? Like we're not making a product, we're not creating a technology, we're not implementing a technology, so why do people need us? And then this morning, actually, I just kind of realized like well, people need us because at the and the other side of all those products and technologies and services, they're humans.
Speaker 3:And if you don't understand the humans, then you can't really provide a good product or a service, absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's that comfort level around technology. I think that's where there's going to be tremendous growth and learning in the years to come. I think for the younger generation coming into the workforce it's a given, because they're already so, it's naturally they're inclined to use technology and it's the second nature for them. I think it's maybe a little harder for our generation because we've already kind of, you know, I've grown, you know what we knew of technology and we have to keep learning. That actually is the very positive of the workforce. As I see.
Speaker 3:Progress is learning organizations. So it's going to be a requirement that throughout your career, whether you stay with one employer or several employers, that you continue to learn and that's something that maybe was not so much you know part of the curriculum you know in past generations, where I mean you could do the same job over and over again and not really be challenged in how you approached it or becoming, you know, more efficient. I think technology is going to speed that up for sure. There'll be no option but to learn, but I think it's going to make you know our workforce a lot more productive and more efficient and better skilled as well. So I think it's very exciting to see that even you know simple positions are going to be challenged due to technology A lot of manual. You get the support of technology. Maybe that's where the balance comes back. It's that day off that you get because you're more productive using the technology that you've learned and that you've been empowered to use properly. A lot to be seen, but I think it's exciting times.
Speaker 1:So, in terms of what you've done to help companies transform, do you see the advent of a lot more learning programs within companies to do some of that development on the job? Like you said, it's not really about learning a skill that you then just apply anymore. That skill has to change over time. So are you seeing that reflected internally?
Speaker 3:I think obviously it's been probably put a little bit on the back burner in the past two years because it's been less, you know, of a focus on on training and development. I'm saying that knowing that there's been the caveat of you know a number of people in management positions who are remote, who've had the opportunity to take advantage of, you know, online learning. So I've seen it, you know both ways. So bit less you know aggression in terms of training development and more maybe on the managerial side where people who were remote and had, you know, less of a regular, normal day were able to take advantage of some great you know programs. And I think that as we get back to normalcy, it's going to be you know we're looking at, you know how we do business, what is essential and what is not essential and where can you leverage technology, when can you save time so that you can dedicate more time to the face-to-face and what really you can't replace with technology.
Speaker 2:I mean there are certain things that will never, that will remain very human, that we want to keep very human, which I certainly am a strong advocate for Well, and there's always a human that's going to be using the technology, so we can always fall back on that one Exactly exactly.
Speaker 2:What are some of the things that you've found? So, from a leadership perspective you mentioned this a couple of times there's a lot of changing, there's a lot of evolving and looking at things differently. As we know, change is hard and it's not overnight. So what are some of the ways to kind of get the organizations and the leadership team to not want to keep falling back to the way things used to be?
Speaker 3:Well, I think right now the reality of the market is pumping it naturally. So the good thing is the market conditions are creating are going to create better leaders. The fact it's so difficult today to attract talent is going to create better leaders. The fact it's so difficult today to attract talent is going to require better leadership and that means it has to be internalized through everything that that company represents and the way information is conveyed internally and processes are documented and managed and maintained. All of that, that language, leadership language needs to transpire for the entire company. It's interesting because I've seen, I've read a lot about toxic work cultures and why leaders are dictators and very control oriented. That type of leadership cannot last, not in this type of economy. So I think it's going to be to the benefit of the employees to really, because I think for leaders to attract today and retain the right talent, it's going to take, you know, changing those things If they do have a toxic workplace. It's how do we transform, how do we create, you know, a culture of transparency, where people trust and respect each other, where there's teamwork, where there's collaboration, and how do we get rid of paranoia? And you know conflict and tension, and actually I say that the conflict and tension is actually very healthy in a workplace. So it's more so when that is not allowed right, or if dissension is created through the leader. That's where you know you create toxicity. But you know, I think today the market the way it is is actually a blessing to employees and to leaders because it is going to push them maybe out of their comfort zone if they're not a very open, amiable, you know type leader who kind of embraces, very open, amiable. You know type leader who kind of embraces their team and looks at you know that entire culture. But it's going to naturally prompt, you know better, more positive cultures where you know it's interesting.
Speaker 3:I think I read not long ago that a culture is defined by the worst behavior that takes place in a company. Right, and that's acceptable. Right, I would agree. And I was thinking, well, okay, so worst behavior, that's true, and what about the best behavior? So how are the best behaviors reinforced on a regular basis so that it becomes it is the culture? Right, it is the reinforcement of all those positive behaviors and ways of being and presenting yourself and working along with other people and collaborating, if all of that is praised and appreciated and reinforced on a regular basis. That's how you create that culture right and?
Speaker 3:But that's the daily assignment at every level of the organization, starting with the leader at the top right, and it has to be ingrained in everything you do. And it only works if you have accountability throughout, right. So if you have the positive behaviors but no accountability, that can also, you know things can fall apart. So you still need a little bit of the structure of how do we hold people accountable to those you know values or positive behaviors, and how do we continue to recognize and praise and appreciate, you know, our employees and our managers, for you know all that hard work and for creating that, creating and maintaining that culture. That should almost be a goal for every single you know employee and manager in an organization is you know, how do we continue to promote a culture of well-being, of happiness at work, of creativity, creativity of engagements, and people should be honest on that. I mean it's the only way of, you know, creating something that they shouldn't even be. I shouldn't say they shouldn't be honest, they shouldn't even be, because it should be the reason that has on that right of the company.
Speaker 3:But if we want to continue to incentivize people to to do the right thing. Certainly that's something that you know organizations should be looking at and I think we're going to see a development of a lot of that in the years to come. I mean, there's such a demand for that. Employees, you know, are craving, are asking for that, are waiting, and you know, looking to see what you know employers will come up with. And for that waiting, and you know, looking to see what you know employers will come up with and will come up with ideas, and you know, I think, if employers welcome those ideas and implement them, we're going to see great success stories and, you know, great companies grow quickly and do really well. Yeah, I think you know the time of dictatorship is. You know doesn't work.
Speaker 2:We've seen that in history too.
Speaker 1:So the companies, are just following history so you've talked a lot about, like some of the values, alignment. I definitely agree there's a lot of like help to be had when you can connect that purpose and you mentioned accountability is a huge portion of that. Are there some really good accountability programs or ways to keep accountable that you've seen or you recommend?
Speaker 3:well, I I tend to do a lot of boutique and customization of the work that I do. So I work with partners I don't want to get names here but I would say there is a solution for every size company in terms of creating that structure if they don't have it. And I would say it's more so empowering you know the leadership team to do the right thing and that's built into you know your performance management system, so you do have a number of tools and resources available to you to build that in that accountability. I don't think you can teach accountability per se, but I think you can help leaders define what accountability looks like for their team, their operation and what those specific goals and what the outcome of those goals should look like and expect results. I think it's very difficult to get results if you don't manage to those results, and I think one of the things that I've seen be very positive both for the employees and the team leaders, is regular conversations around.
Speaker 3:You know project management is how we're doing. You know how we're progressing. You know the milestones, celebrating the milestones so that there is a sense of accomplishment along the way, and I think that's how you build a cancer page. It's conversations really throughout the life cycle of that project, all the to the you know the final outcome. So creating more conversations in the workplace on a regular basis. That dialogue shouldn't be left to an annual you know review. It should really be on a regular basis. That's certainly something that I focus on with all my clients and that's transformational. That really is.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm having conversations not just around performance, but in general. You know you mentioned more collaboration, more connections, more teamwork, more working together, which is, I guess, what are some of the tactics that you've seen being successful in transforming the culture to be more collaborative, more connected, more about the people than about? Here's a list of tasks. Go in your corner, finish them up.
Speaker 3:I think it goes back to leadership again. I think it's attracting the leaders that have that type of appreciation for the dialogue. I think it really starts you that have that type of appreciation for the dialogue. I think it really starts, you know. I think there are two you know views to this. It starts at the top but there's also the grassroots opportunity to really leverage the information that's coming from your employee base. So I think you want to leverage both sides.
Speaker 3:But I think if you really want to change the culture of your company, you suddenly have to start with the leadership team and make sure that you attract leaders that believe in that.
Speaker 3:You know, if you have leaders who've actually worked really hard and through the ranks and they always were in that control you know type environment they're going to, naturally they'll have embodied that and associated that with success as well. I mean because maybe that's been their experience in the past. So I would be very cautious in making sure that if that's the desire of the company to switch towards that more of an open environment of dialogue is to attract the leadership that will allow for that and give opportunities by creating really almost a structure for that within the organization. So it has to be welcomed, it has to be part of what is expected at that level and that should really percolate, it should really transpire, you know, for the entire company. But I think the tone needs to be set at the very top, because it's not easy for an employee to come up with ideas if you know it's not being for an employee to come up and with ideas, if you know it's not being welcomed by the higher up.
Speaker 2:so that culture really has to come from leadership alex, and I call that the open glass door policy, as in, instead of open door, when you walk in and ask questions or prior suggestions, it's a glass door and you smack your face into it when you try yeah, I like that it's the appearance of transparency yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I was a corporate trainer for six sigma for a number of years for start who doesn't know what's then? And we went and I actually rolled it out. You know, worldwide started north america and then we went to europe, africa and the least and a little bit of asia, pacific as well. It was an was an amazing journey for me learning the company and getting to meet with all the SQLs around the world and trying to deliver the very same products in a different way. We had the same curriculum but we had to adapt to local ways of doing things, which was fantastic because we were kind of in the country, so we were experiencing it as we were going.
Speaker 3:But what I learned, what I really enjoyed about Six Sigma, was this approach to the voice of the customer. The voice of the customer was absolutely critical and I know there are new philosophies in terms of management practices, but I think that is something that will always stay, regardless of the methodology that you use is really trying to understand what your customers want and need, whatever you deliver as a service or a product, and trying to translate that into requirements and kind of organize your or recreate your organization or the world of work around those criteria so that you can generate the revenues or reduce the cost or whatever your mission is. I thought that there's a translation table for customer requirements into something tangible that you can actually deliver on, and I was always fascinated by that because it really allowed a company to realign, to reorganize, to reinvent itself. And I was thinking from an interest standpoint standpoint. Isn't that just fascinating, you know, if only we could take the voice of our internal customer employees and figure out what they want and what they need and translate those few things into key requirements.
Speaker 3:What does it look like? What does it mean? What does engagement mean? What does benefits mean? What does you know life, life-work balance mean? Because it means something different to different people. And if we do the period chart of that the 80-20, you know, if we want to try to get to 80% of our employee base, what does that look like in terms of initiatives?
Speaker 3:And I think it's just fascinating to think that you can apply, you know, some scientific tools to some extent, or methodology, to really get through the nuggets that are going to help you create the culture that works for you, because, again, it's very unique to each company, but there are methods by which you can do that and I think that every employer today should be putting on the agenda for next year and years to come. What are those nuggets putting on the agenda for next year and years to come? What are those nuggets and how do we hook our mission statement and our values around those to make sure we deliver on those, because that's the best strategy to actually attract and retain that talent and make sure that we strive for years to come. I think it's really important to keep listening to your customers and to your employees alike. It's so important to keep listening to your customers and to your employees alike. It's so important to have both sides, both aspects, to have that balance Really critical today.
Speaker 1:It makes your job so much easier, both as an employee and as a leader. If you want to be making a lot of decisions about the company, it's a lot easier when you know what the direction is, what are the values, what are we really trying to bring forward. If you can make those right trade-offs at the right time and the employees understand what that is, what that means, what that means for them, it's a lot easier to have these conversations when you have established that baseline and it's consistent and everybody knows what they're talking about, what it means, about these four values we have on our wall. What does that really mean for everybody? How do we do that on a company level? How do we do that on an employee level? It's amazing how much easier the job is. Everybody kind of fights themselves until they get to this point. Where they can, they can coalesce those things.
Speaker 3:But it's so powerful, right, and it goes beyond that. First, on the wall, it's really, I mean, it's obviously the approach, but I think, when it's lived on a daily basis, for what you just described as a conversation, a dialogue where it's ingrained, it's just the way we function right, because we know we're creative, we're a cool team, we work together and it's embodied Ultimately. That's, you know, I think, what every company should be striving towards, because it's so powerful and, having lived through it, it's quite amazing.
Speaker 2:When you're able to create that, it is amazing.
Speaker 1:It's pretty magical when you witness it and you see it happens and the work is not easy to get there because you're basically have to deprogram some other habits and reprogram a new habit, and that has to come from the top and everybody has to be invested enough in that and that is a long transformation. That's why you can't just you just redefine values and then suddenly everybody's off and running. It is a mindset that becomes just the way we start going forward and that takes practice, that takes visual reinforcement so that we can get into that. And that's, I think, what some people miss in cultural transformations. They just are like well, we need to improve some things. That's good. It's going to take a lot of investment, a lot of deliberate practice that will feel awkward at first sometimes to get in that into the blood of the organization and make this just the common way that we interact.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you're describing transformation briefly, because it's a process, right? And it's not always pretty, right. No, it's not always pretty, because it's that iterative process of trial and error and trying to figure it out and, as you're saying, at times it's getting rid of things that no longer serve. So bad habits, yeah, let's, you know, let's not do this anymore. But it's that creating that awareness that, at least in the conversation of what we want to be, so that we can get rid of that when no longer serves and just focus on the value add.
Speaker 2:And it's daily. I I mean, we always talk about habits, but it is a habit, it's a daily action. It's not the you know announcing. You know, just come to us with questions once a year, once a quarter, once at the beginning of the project. That doesn't. That's not a habit, that's not an action yes, every day.
Speaker 3:You're absolutely right, it's every day and it needs to be done with authenticity. It's, it's, you know, and I think that's why it's so important to bring the right talent in. I actually just recently partnered with a predictive index. It's one of the my partnerships because they really focus on talent optimization. Looking at, there's so many personalities, my social styles in the environment and there is no good or bad. Important thing is the dynamic right, that team dynamic.
Speaker 3:So bringing that the right team together or helping that team align towards, you know, the business objectives, is really critical so people can take advantage of each other's strengths as well. Often it's just that self-realization of, well, we don't all have the same strengths and you know there are certain things that are it's not necessarily a weakness I don't like to use the weakness but it's more so the lack of awareness. So, just when you have kind of a self-assessment, it allows you to see your blind spots, and when you know that on the team you have somebody who's actually who can actually support some of those areas that you know you're less strong in, you can truly team up and create an environment that is powerful. And I think that that also helps the leaders. If the leader doesn't necessarily have it, the team culture will make up for that.
Speaker 3:But I think you need to look at the global picture and I think that for people to have individual assessments and then team assessments to see you know where they really contribute and how they should be contributing to that particular team is powerful, because then you really have, you know, you have a tactical, you know tool to help you leverage the best out of your people, and that's the only way of making it part of the everyday. It's a habit, because we're learning to work together as a team and we're well aware of what you know and we can live with people's. You know blind spots, we know where they are. They know where they are too and we've come to accept that. You know they have that and we're going to actually make up for that because we're strong in that area. So I think that creates that dialogue and, you know, forms, those good, healthy habits.
Speaker 2:So, but it takes time to create that and a lot of self-awareness and a lot of team awareness yeah, we're big fans of assessments because of that awareness of where are my blind spots, which I may know but I may not have the language I may not know. Most of the times I don't know when I do may know but I may not have the language I may not know. Most of the times I don't know when I do get to know them, I don't have the language to actually express them to other people. And then, as a team, what are the team blind spots? And if we end up in a situation where nobody can overcome them, who's closer enough? How does the leader and the team address that? Alex and I actually took the predictive index and we have common blind spots, which doesn't help us as business partners.
Speaker 3:But it does help us. The rest of the team.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's really helping us in figuring out like okay, neither of us are good at this, so who can we bring on that can compensate for that gigantic bottom right corner which we're both?
Speaker 3:avoiding, and that's tremendous. I mean, to come in and know that from the get go is amazing, right it is. Yeah, it creates a space where a very safe space too. Right that you can be yourselves and it's okay not to be perfect, right, because we're all human and we'll make mistakes and we're not good at everything. And I think to create that environment in the workplace is liberating and it fosters an environment of creativity where people can be at their best and feel supported. It takes away that culture of blame or lack of accountability, because there's no need for it anymore. There's no reason for it. Everybody is part of this and everybody belongs and feels valued for what they're able to contribute. There are a few tools like that you know I'm mentioning this one, but that really focus on the positive and what people can bring to the workplace.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more. I think it eliminates a lot of frustration and disappointment. You know, some of the definitions of frustration and disappointment is that our expectations weren't met. If we can align our expectations of what other people will be doing based on what their strengths and their blind spots are, then we can avoid a lot of that misunderstanding, frustration, disappointment, miscommunication. Because it's like you know why expect Alex, for example, I'm gonna pick on you to sit down and, you know, create like this gigantic piece. If that's not his strength, I can't. You know. Then my own disappointment it's like why? Why am I disappointed? I'm disappointed because of my expectation of something that I knew from the get-go that that wasn't his strength exactly Exactly, and I think that's I mean what you're reflecting on as well.
Speaker 3:Is that leader realizing that on that team, you know he may not have the person that he needs to accomplish that goal? And it's kind of thinking, you know. So do I have that person within the organization, not the team, or do I need to look for side talent to make up for what I need on this particular team and then obviously leverage the strength of that you know player in other ways? But I think that that takes a lot of you know, reflection and wanting to help. You know, look at your employees differently, see where their strengths are and be willing to accept that you know you can develop them in a different way. It's interesting you asked me at the beginning, you know, earlier on, you know, what I had seen change during the pandemic. One of the things that I didn't actually share with you is I saw a lot of a concerned workforce, employees who had issues or who, you know, did not feel comfortable anymore in the workplace because there was obviously a lot of unknown of you know, is my job safe? Is it, you know, and that created a lot of internal turmoil At times. You know, to the extent that you can't necessarily mention that to your direct supervisor or, you know, you can't go to the CEO and say, you know I'm really worried. But that's where HR you know, if you have an HR intern and HR department becomes kind of the gateway for that of being able to listen to those employee concerns and, before they become issues, performance issues, to address and reassure employees, you know, on the emotional level, so that they can continue to perform and focus on what they're supposed to do, so that they can continue to perform and focus on what they're supposed to do. And what I've seen is when you don't have an HR team or you don't have a supervisor that you can confide in, that's where those tensions result in employees who are detached, disengaged and eventually will leave the company, and not necessarily for the right reason, right, so we may be losing an employee who is this one, just because of that lack of communication. We talked about a lot of dialogue and communication. If that does not happen and in particular times of tension and uncertainty, that is where the risk is.
Speaker 3:And I think today that's a huge risk for many organizations who don't realize that well, maybe they don't have the structure of an HR, formalized HR team and even if they do, do they leverage it fully and do they give that opportunity for just letting out, you know, the emotional side and refocus, help that person, refocus on the business and how they can continue to successfully contribute, and I think that's the greatest missed opportunity today. So not only do I focus on, you know, time acquisition, but really retention With many of my employers right now, it's really let's, you know, make sure that we have focus, but let's talk to individuals as well. And instead of getting rid of people who are problems right, because that tends to be right, it has been for a very long time a strategy is you know, a person who is not aligned, who doesn't believe, who's disgruntled, you know let's get rid of them, right. So I'm saying it in a candid way, but obviously you know it's a little more subtle than that. But ultimately, you know there are only two ways of you know how do we reshape the behavior, how do we help the person re-engage or do we decide to kind of disengage from that person, and and then you know we set the steps towards that.
Speaker 3:I think there's tremendous opportunity in that area, more so today than ever before, within every organization there is and if the CEO says, you know everybody's happy, you know there's still, you know some grumbling and in every organization there's opportunity just to tap into that and turn things around Before you know you see a huge, you know exodus because people have lost.
Speaker 3:You know you see a huge, you know exodus because people have lost, you know, faith or trust in the organization and I think that that is really that's almost. You know it's an art and a science, but it's being able to quickly get the pulse of the organization and figure out where those pain points are and quickly intervening and speaking to those, you know candidates, to really try to assess what is happening and how can you help re-engage them. That is very doable and I think that that's probably, you know, a strategy that many employers should be looking at if they haven't addressed that. You know, in the past few years, just because of you know the economy and how things have been in the last few years level 170. Just want to put that out because I think you know at times it's easy just to turn the other way and pretend it doesn't exist and let that person go, but it's again, it's a lost opportunity. So that's where HR I think can do a little bit of its magic at times Doesn't always work, but certainly there's opportunity there.
Speaker 1:I really love the idea of changing the mindset to like grumbling not as a sign of an issue. I mean, it is a sign of an issue. There's something that people are grumbling about, but grumbling itself is not the issue, it's the silencing of the grumbling. And then you just have people writing you know whatever story of whatever the issue is in their head and that will grow without any chance to address it. Whereas if you allow for the grumbling as a powerful tool, eventually it starts to become not grumbling. People will just come up to you and say, hey, I'd rather change this. Instead, it isn't even grumbling, it's just feedback, and it becomes a lot easier to take that cycle. But it takes that bravery on the leadership part and the whole leadership team to say, okay, I need to start listening to what people are grumbling about instead of trying to just dismiss it and have to do it and say, well, just, you know, disgruntled, there's nothing we can do about that. They'll just, it'll work itself out like.
Speaker 3:You missed the opportunity and I like the way you put it that it is really a tremendous opportunity yeah, and again, if people have a voice today and if they can express it internally and in a safe manner at work, it's going to come out elsewhere, right, yeah, and people can express themselves today on social media. It's going to come out elsewhere, right, and people can express themselves Today. I mean, social media is very prevalent and it's important that people feel that they have a voice. So I think, you know, the place of employment is a place where employees should feel safe and should feel that you know they can, as long as they're respectful and courteous towards you know, everyone. There's no reason for you know, fearing providing feedback and even critical feedback. They should be welcomed in absolutely every way, at every level of the organization, and that's something that leaders you know should be prepared to offer and welcome Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure we could have a whole other episode on just how to create a safe environment and many of the other pieces of this complexity. But thank you so much, Anne Catherine, for this wonderful conversation. Lots to take away and lots to reflect on, and hopefully we'll start seeing the changes and we'll start helping with the changes that are needed. Absolutely or continue to help. We already are helping, okay.
Speaker 1:It's such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for joining and sharing this. We do have one more question for you. What does authenticity mean to you?
Speaker 3:I think being authentic is really being fully aligned. When your mind and your hearts are fully aligned and you're able to just be, I think it's kind of a state of your natural being where you're almost detached from anything outside and where you're in a it's almost in a non-judgment zone where you could be kind of an objective observer because you're so aligned with your essence. You just are you and it's not always easy to be in that state of authenticity. At times you feel pulled and influenced to truly be able to be yourself and be the best you can be, I think, and allow you know. Going back to our conversation, allowing employees to be authentic is takes um, an incredible leadership style where it's, you know, of acceptance. But I think for the person itself to feel authentic is that level of self-love and self-acceptance where you're just truly aligned in your mind and heart it is.
Speaker 2:I want to work for those leaders who wouldn't right exactly, I guess that's what I've chosen to do over and over. So where can people find you?
Speaker 3:so the best way is really so. I have a website, wwwequalmagnacom, and you know a simple email and kathleen at equalmagnacom and I send you welcome, you know inquiries. And if I Catherine at EqualMagnacom, and I certainly welcome you know inquiries and if I can be of help or service to anyone, I welcome that. That's my life mission, that's my only aspiration, that's what gives meaning and purpose to me and the reason why I started my company. So thank you so much for the opportunity to join you and share this wonderful conversation with you, and I look forward to many more to come.
Speaker 2:Yes, the next one in New York In person.
Speaker 3:Yes, Absolutely Looking forward to that. Oh yes.
Speaker 2:That's definitely the plan. Well, thank you again for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, anne-catherine, and thank you everybody for listening.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to Uncover the Human a Siamo podcast.
Speaker 1:Special thanks to our podcast operations wizard, Jake Lara, and our score creator, Rachel Sherwood.
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Speaker 2:Until next time, listen to yourself, listen to others and always uncover the human.